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Public Forums => Off Topic => Topic started by: danskmacabre on September 13, 2013, 12:19:49 AM

Title: dnD next?
Post by: danskmacabre on September 13, 2013, 12:19:49 AM
Anyone heard much about the up and coming DnD next, the successor to DnD 4th edition?

I've read a bit about it and apparently it'll be a big departure from 4th edition, hailing back more to the old days of DnD.

It might be worth a look if I only have to buy 1 or 2 books to get a feel for it.
Title: 5th Edition D&D
Post by: Rich on September 13, 2013, 01:38:17 AM
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_5th_Edition

Not seen anything yet, The above gives some info.

According to RM player Alex, he seems to think it's a complete move from 4th Ed and thought it's a lot like PF.
Title: Re: dnD next?
Post by: danskmacabre on September 13, 2013, 01:49:37 AM
Is that the same as DnD next?
The article you linked seems to imply they're two different things.
Title: dnD next?
Post by: Rich on September 13, 2013, 02:30:33 AM
Sorry not sure. All I know really was what Alex briefly said at the last RM sess.
Title: Re: dnD next?
Post by: danskmacabre on September 13, 2013, 11:25:04 AM
Surely that article is a pisstake.
It's dripping with sarcasm
Title: Re: dnD next?
Post by: Rich on September 13, 2013, 12:29:33 PM
Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition / D&D Next

In January 2012, Wizards of the Coast announced that the fifth major edition of the game, officially referred to as D&D Next, was under development.[30] In direct contrast to the previous editions of the game, D&D Next will be developed partly via a public open playtest.[31] An early build of the new edition debuted at the 2012 Dungeons & Dragons Experience event to about 500 fans.[32] Public playtesting began on May 24, 2012.[33] There is no scheduled date for the release of the new edition.


Well, above is what it says on WIKI. So who knows, couldn't find anything on WOC website and I thought there would be as they own the game. Will see Alex at next RM game next week so I will see if he can shed any more light on it. Alex has an account on this forum but his technophobia rivals Jo (almost), so I'd need to ring or speak to him.
Title: Re: dnD next?
Post by: danskmacabre on September 13, 2013, 02:06:49 PM
Yeah , the bit you quoted is true, but the general review bit to me reads as a pisstake
Title: DnD next?
Post by: Rich on September 15, 2013, 08:48:37 PM
Yep spoke to Alex and he said he "may" post something.

However, don't hold your breath, he will need to say many Hail Catweazles (and now Jo is back, seek his leave also), before doing something so heinous as chatting on an internet forum such as this.
Title: Re: dnD next?
Post by: HAILAK on September 17, 2013, 05:17:54 PM
I've had a look at D&D next, (you can download the playtest for free), and it seems to be a serious backpedaling on the movements done on 4th ed. There are no more "powers" or "tiers", DPS/Tank catagorization etc.

However, it just looks like an inferior clone of pathfinder at the moment.
A problem that the developers seem to have is that they don't know what was wrong with 4ed, or indeed what was wrong with 3ed.

4th ed is a reasonable board game, but a lacklustre, mediocre RPG; if wizards wanted to make D&D an accessable board game, then they pretty much succeeded.

However, the goal of Wizards has always been the money-grab. 4th ed was released in the hope of tapping the World of Warcraft fanbase, (look at how much money blizzard make), and now D&D next is going to copy pathfinder now that they have realised that 4th ed underperformed financially. This is a mistake, as those who liked 4th ed will not change to a totally different system, and those who like pathfinder are already sold on that.

The main problem seems to be that Wizards' main concern at every stage is cash, this should be obvious if you look at Magic The Gathering in the past decade.

The difference in attitude shows through in the finished product. For example, Paizo publish a lot of companions and modules, supporting DMs, whereas Wizards publish lots of Player's handbooks etc (PH2, PH3 etc) as there are more DMs than players, and is the reason why Wizards have mostly just reprinted old adventures rather than take risks. Conversely, Paizo have released very "out-there" supplements and modules (such as one where you travel to 1917 to kill Rasputin). In short, the simple quality of Paizo outstrips Wizards these days, to add another problem for them.

I'm sure some people will like D&D next, plenty of people liked 4th ed; but I'm sure that dissapointing sales will lead to Wizards doing another swerve, hell, there has already been talk of selling D&D altogether, as MTG makes a shedton more money per $ spent on it.

Paizo: "If we make a good game, people will buy it"
I've had a look at D&D next, (you can download the playtest for free), and it seems to be a serious backpedaling on the movements done on 4th ed. There are no more "powers" or "tiers", DPS/Tank catagorization etc.

However, it just looks like an inferior clone of pathfinder at the moment.
A problem that the developers seem to have is that they don't know what was wrong with 4ed, or indeed what was wrong with 3ed.

4th ed is a reasonable board game, but a lacklustre, mediocre RPG; if wizards wanted to make D&D an accessable board game, then they pretty much succeeded.

However, the goal of Wizards has always been the money-grab. 4th ed was released in the hope of tapping the World of Warcraft fanbase, (look at how much money blizzard make), and now D&D next is going to copy pathfinder now that they have realised that 4th ed underperformed financially. This is a mistake, as those who liked 4th ed will not change to a totally different system, and those who like pathfinder are already sold on that.

The main problem seems to be that Wizards' main concern at every stage is cash, this should be obvious if you look at Magic The Gathering in the past decade.

The difference in attitude shows through in the finished product. For example, Paizo publish a lot of companions and modules, supporting DMs, whereas Wizards publish lots of Player's handbooks etc (PH2, PH3 etc) as there are more DMs than players, and is the reason why Wizards have mostly just reprinted old adventures rather than take risks. Conversely, Paizo have released very "out-there" supplements and modules (such as one where you travel to 1917 to kill Rasputin). In short, the simple quality of Paizo outstrips Wizards these days, to add another problem for them.

I'm sure some people will like D&D next, plenty of people liked 4th ed; but I'm sure that dissapointing sales will lead to Wizards doing another swerve, hell, there has already been talk of selling D&D altogether, as MTG makes a shedton more money per $ spent on it.

Paizo: "If we make a good game, people will buy it"
Wizards: "We demand more money! Someone make a new edition!"
Title: Re: dnD next?
Post by: Rich on September 17, 2013, 05:26:03 PM
I've had a look at D&D next, (you can download the playtest for free

Can you post a link to the playtest?
Title: Re: dnD next?
Post by: HAILAK on September 17, 2013, 05:34:20 PM
Yahwol
http://dndplaytest.wizards.com/
Title: Re: dnD next?
Post by: danskmacabre on September 18, 2013, 01:50:50 AM
DnD 4th Edition
I have played 4th Edition several times.
It wasn't really to my tastes, but a friend in my gaming group in Hampshire who I ran PF and other RPGs for wanted to run it for a bit, so I gave it a go.

I kept an open mind and played it for about 10 sessions, so I feel that's a pretty fair go.

My views on it:
I hated the idea of daily and encounter powers.  characters seem very forced into a small area of effectiveness.
I didn't like the healing surges. 
Tbh those features just made it feel like a video game.

The amount of various powers (which were pretty limited anyway) were a bit of a nightmare to keep track of as we went up levels and it didn't feel at all intuitive.
It was mitigated somewhat by the GM handing out powers cards that could be flipped over as you used them, which made it feel even more like a boardgame.
The characters themselves felt VERY combat orientated in fact the vast majority of the rules were about combat.

When I tried to get some roleplaying in and do something that diverged from the provided scenario I felt like I was breaking the flow of the game and no matter what I did, we just moved onto the next part of the scenario.
I just felt like no matter what we did or how we reacted we would go from one pre generated battle scene to the next.

There was this monthly subscription service too, which gives you electronic access to all the rules and a character generator.
I didn't subscribe to this, but the GM did and he managed our characters.
That was fine for me for limited sessions, but I would not buy into a subscription service just to play a tabletop RPG longterm.

All in all, it was OK I guess, but it's like they took an RPG, took the ROLEplaying out of it and made it an open-ended boardgame.

My honest opinion is if you want to play a game like 4th edition, you may as well buy the Descent boardgame, which comes with pre-generated scenarios, maps and LOADS of figures.
It's better value for money and only slightly more railroady than 4th Ed.

I reiterate this isn't a view I formed from reading  a review, it's from actual extended gameplay.


 
Pathfinder
As to PF, well I ran and played that for a couple of years. It was good fun, but it did get quite unwieldy from about 10th to 12th level and I didn't enjoy it so much from that point onwards.
I think I ran it until about 14th level, at which point I stopped running or playing it and ran Elric/MRQ2/Legend and other RPGs.
Still, I had 2 years of some fantastic gaming running and playing PF.
And I like the low to mid level gaming with it.


OSR
For me I'm more into OSR based Indie RPGs, they move really quick and very playable.
My current game of choice is "Stars without number" an OSR based Scifi game. Sort of feels like Traveller but with ODnD rules converted to Scifi .

I currently run SWN at a tabletop with a group at my place in Brisbane, but I also run it online here:
http://rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=56914&date=1379461751



Dnd Next
If I can buy just one book to get a feel for DnD next, I'll probably get it and have a read, more for Nostalgia than anything else.
Who knows, I might like it.
If it's just a copy of PF , perhaps with the rules cleaned up more, it might be a decent game, but I expect it will be structured in a way that you will need to buy lots of books to run it or play it
One of the big draws to PF for me was the core rules book had everything you needed to play the game and if you wanted to run it, then a bestiary as well and that's it.  Great value!






Title: Re: dnD next?
Post by: HAILAK on September 18, 2013, 12:31:35 PM
Yeah, though I don't like Wizards, and think that the direction that 4e took was bad, it's not an awful game, just very forgettable when there are so many good RPGs out there.

Even pathfinder has its flaws; I actually feel that it's still too game-ist. My current love is hackmaster. The basic rules are free
http://www.kenzerco.com/product_info.php?cPath=62_102&products_id=862

I agree with you about powers, healing surges, it being too much like a video game, and being better off buying the descent board game. I might download the final D&D next PDF if it does enough good things, but I'm really so poor that there are plenty of other RPGs calling out for my money.
Title: Re: dnD next?
Post by: danskmacabre on September 18, 2013, 12:49:40 PM
Ah I know Hackmaster, not actually played it but took a look some years back. It looked quite fun.

BTW, Stars without number  has a free version of the rules, I believe the free rules don't include Robotics or AI, but  95% of the rules are there.
you can get it here:
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/86467/Stars-Without-Number-Free-Edition
If you want to have a browse of the rules.
There's loads of other free material for it as well.

another interesting (but not free) D20 game is Numenara. I've not see or played it yet, but have read some reviews and it sounds very interesting.
Title: Re: dnD next?
Post by: danskmacabre on September 18, 2013, 01:05:08 PM
Yeah, though I don't like Wizards, and think that the direction that 4e took was bad, it's not an awful game, just very forgettable when there are so many good RPGs out there.

One of the confusing things was there's so many VERSIONS of 4th edition, It's quite strange.
If I didn't ask someone else about it who knew the ropes of 4th ed, I doubt I'd know what books to get even if I wanted to buy it.


   
Even pathfinder has its flaws; I actually feel that it's still too game-ist.

At first I didn't like all the feats in PF, but after I got used to it, it was ok and made sense, but at higher level it gets very unwieldy, there's like 100s of feats and some of them are just crap anyway, so someone with a good knowledge of the game can build a lot better character with the right combos of feats. Which kinda sucks, although you''ll never get a truly gimped character in PF.


I might download the final D&D next PDF if it does enough good things, but I'm really so poor that there are plenty of other RPGs calling out for my money.

yeah if the PDF is cost effective I'll probs grab that. I have an Android tablet and I use it for a lot for the free RPGs I've downloaded.
I suspect DnD next will require having to buy loads of books tho, at which point I won't bother with it.
Title: Re: dnD next?
Post by: HAILAK on September 19, 2013, 01:54:52 AM
One other serious matter that people like Rich tend to raise is that Wizards seem to have some crazy idea about charging people subscriptions for things. That's just crazy. Simply a way of making steady money.
Title: Re: dnD next?
Post by: danskmacabre on September 19, 2013, 03:14:46 AM
Yeah that's the subscription to electronic access of the rules and you get a character generator as well that I mentioned earlier.
No way I'd pay a monthly subscription to play a TABLETOP rpg, lol.

If there was a Yearly sub of around $50 for access to a 3D virtual tabletop with voice, chat  and all sorts of decent features to run RPGs online with a lobby to find players, I might bite.
but not if it was just for 4th ed DnD.

Google hangouts and Roll20 is free and and it pretty decent anyway and whilst it's a bit clunky, it's not too bad and it;s not locked into a specific system.
It's not 3D though, which would be nice.

Title: Re: dnD next?
Post by: wvallance on September 19, 2013, 08:45:18 AM
Or maybe if the first years subscription was free when you bought the game. You could decide after a year if it was worth it and not feel you were trapped into paying hidden costs after you just bought half a game.

From the sound of it, 4th ed would have done better if they'd called it something other than D&D. Old players don't like it as it's nothing like the game they are used to and the WoW kids could see it as the RP Boardgame that it really is, without the D&D association.
Title: Re: dnD next?
Post by: danskmacabre on September 19, 2013, 10:03:14 AM
Or maybe if the first years subscription was free when you bought the game. You could decide after a year if it was worth it and not feel you were trapped into paying hidden costs after you just bought half a game.

Yes that's not unreasonable, seeing as you're getting a physical product anyway.


From the sound of it, 4th ed would have done better if they'd called it something other than D&D. Old players don't like it as it's nothing like the game they are used to and the WoW kids could see it as the RP Boardgame that it really is, without the D&D association.

Hmm the name "Dungeons and Dragons" still has a lot of power in it in RPG circles. I think they were reeling from the OGL with 3.5 and Paizo pulling the rug under their feet with Pathfinder and stealing loads of their customers.
IMO they just decided what people wanted and abandoned their 3.5 fans (not that I ever played 3.5, The last version of DnD I played before PF was ADnD) and it turned out that Paizo made the right choice with PF.

I do think that 4th Ed was pretty popular, but there was a VERY vocal opposition to it as well. I reckon it just didn't make as much money as Hasbro wanted it to make rather than WotC themselves.

To my mind the best option is what I think Hailak pointed out earlier that Hasbro/WotC drop/sell DnD and let some other more dedicated company to the DnD name pick up the mantle to make a better game.
Maybe that WILL happen if next fails.

Still I WANT to like DnD next, so if reliable reviews give it a decent overview I might get it just for old times sake even if I never run it.